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This is continuation of my fight to get the game genres to work together in sensible manner. Adventure... good examples would be: - Quest for Glory - Monkey Island - plethora of text games Large majority of the text adventure games are interactive fiction, although none are apparently marked (tagged) as such. Very few have any combat in them, and if they do, it usually requires some "clever" solution rather than something more action-game oriented. The key word here is _adventure_. Action-adventure games already get treated like adventure actually means adventure, but RPGs don't (there are only adventure games with some RPG elements in them, never the other way around, as if it was some kind of blasphemy). I would go with how adventure movies are treated to get past the problems this genre causes. Role-play... good examples: - seemingly none (that I remember) Often seen as a hybrid genre that includes without exception: combat, puzzles, adventure, etc. Yet none of these are required for it to be RPG, so, it would stand to reason that any RPGs that have them should get them flagged separately. The only real element of RPGs is that you can create a character and play his/her life through the story in a way that suits that character. Usually this means choosing the things you want to do and don't want to do. At the core, these can be like regular adventure games where you have choices how to approach and solve problems in accordance with what kind of character you created or picked (= role-play). So, in essence, this would only mean that RPGs have elements that allow you to play out the character you created, but in most cases you only get few choices of character who you progress through their preset path in the story. RPGs can be non-violent, they can have little or no adventuring, they can be devoid of puzzles, etc. This leaves it to cover very little, but allows it to be mixed with the other game types with little restraint. Puzzles... only mentioned here because it's deemed as "natural part" of RPG and adventure games, which I hope I have covered in enough detail now that people see that it isn't. Puzzle... ... does not cover finding items (I forget what this was called, but some game distributors called this _hidden object_ or some such games) that you need to progress. ... does not cover logical or illogical combination of items (very common in adventure games) that just lay in your inventory (unless they're represented as a puzzle to solve). ... does not cover find the hidden button to progress kinds of situations (unless this requires solving a puzzle to get the thing done, but that's separate of the hidden button issue). The most common type of puzzle is where you re-order a set of pieces (game blocks, numbers, letters, shapes, images, etc.) to form whatever the game wanted. Lego pieces are a form of puzzle, but with instructions included :) I'll update the editor guide later today to match these, except for adventure which _still_ needs better guidelines on _what_ it actually means (short guidelines, so it won't get into a jumble and remain as ambiguous subject as before - only "understood" by those who are fans of the genre). ---- One solution to the problem of adventure-RPG hybrids is to treat RPGs as subgenre of adventure. But I'm not sure if that works in all cases, and logically this would be nonsense, they're unrelated. While I agree with most you posted above I still don't agree that in my eyes "pure" RPGs like Eye of the Beholder get a "action/reflex, maze, adventure, role-play" from you.
Using so many genres for even such a simple to "genre-nize" game like eob waters down the whole different genre system. Would a website dedicated to adventure games feature EOB? Nope. Would one to Action/Reflex games? Nope. One to maze games? Nope. One to RPGs? Yes! I made the EoB entries match each other with minimal changes. Adventure I was about to remove, but opted to keep it since it would border at the "adventure" aspect. I have little idea what adventure genre attempts to mean if it doesn't mean _adventure_. Maze was already set for many of the EoBs and matches many of the games in what we have in that, I only made sure all instances had it since some/most already did (same with adventure). And EoB is very action-oriented for an RPG (I wouldn't call it pure RPG at any level). Many sites _dedicated_ to some genre likely won't have many hybrids, or ignore many aspects of them like they never existed. RPG is strongest in EoB in the eyes of the general public, but what kind of role-playing do you have in it? I see none. You create your characters and then hack&slash your way through everything. In my eyes that's some form of action game with some RPG elements thrown in (attributes, levels, etc. which have nothing to do with roleplaying itself). In the end I would call them hack&slash RPGs in maze (do the levels honestly appear to make sense? to me they're very labyrinthine). So, I can live with adventure being removed from them. Maze not so much, unless you care to define where maze games end and things like the labyrinths seen EoB games begin. If action is removed, then it should have beat 'em up and shooter (spells and thrown/shot projectiles), or something to that effect since the games are _very_ action oriented if not hectic as seems to be the requirement for action. Using so many genres for even such a simple to "genre-nize" game like eob waters down the whole different genre system. My aim is the attempt to dissect the genres to their core elements so no genre tries to be every other genre there is plus this one little thing too. Meaning, if I leave it as is, the following would be true: - RPG = action, adventure, puzzle, and RPG-like elements (-roleplay itself) - Adventure = adventure, puzzle, RPG If you don't see what I mean by this, then my task may be hopeless. EOB is in real-time but by no means hectic. Real-Time strategy games are much more hectic, but they are also no action games. And EOB is not an action hack&slay like Diablo.
Maze is a tricky genre and was in UVL already when I joined. I believe Andrea originally put it in for games like Pac-Man when UVL was more Arcade-oriented. I never liked that "genre". For EOB I think it would be more fitting to give a tag "dungeoncrawler" or similar, because that would be the correct sub-genre name of this kind of RPG and heavily implies maze-like dungeons as main element. When I think if it know, then maze as genre is somewhat obsolete when you can use tags. Adventure, well yes. Both adv and rpg are somehow near genre-wise. I remember a game mag which had a section titled "Adventure corner" which featured tests of both, adventure and rpgs. The main different lies in the gameplay. In RPGs you have one or more characters with stats. You increase these stats, skills or abilities to form your character. This has been taken from pen-and-paper roleplaying-games and thus the electronic versions also got the name roleplaying game. It is not simply about playing a role. Then I could say I take the role as manager of a football team and give Football Manager the RPG genre. And from the very beginning both genres brought out different gameplay-standards in controls, perspective and game elements, seperating each other clearly. Some hybrids like Quest for Glory (looks and plays like a Sierra-Adventure, but also includes stats and fights) always existed and should get both genres (I have seen QfG on RPG sites as well as adventure sites). Modern games are more and more hybrid, bringing a good amount of RPG elements into different genres. So I expect to see an increasing amount of games with genre mixes. EOB though is not a mix, it is the grand-child of Wizardry and the child of Dungeon Master. Both are pure RPG representatives. My aim is the attempt to dissect the genres to their core elements so no genre tries to be every other genre there is plus this one little thing too.
Then you had to remove adventure genre completely. It is about puzzle-solving. But this kind of puzzle solving is totally different from that what we define as puzzle games. Thats why we call Monkey Island adventure and Sokoban puzzle. Also here again there are real hybrids like 7th Guest which should get both genres. Dissection could only be done if you give core-genre-ratings for games. For EOB like that: thinking/puzzle: 3/5 stars action/shooting: 2/5 stars story/adventure: 3/5 stars rpg-elements: 5/5 stars I remember game mags that did categorize the genre of the game via such categories. They didn't gave the genre name, but only these categories and how much they are in the game. Well, I like the standard genre categorization much better. This is continuation of my fight to get the game genres to work together in sensible manner.
I personally have no problems with the three genres and how they work together. Only problem I have is for games like Tomb Raider and how to properly address them genre-wise. I don't feel well to give them adventure genre, because they have not much to do with classical adventures any more. Gameplay is just too different. Thats why I wanted a new genre "action-adventure" (or give it any other name that fits) which is not meant as a combination of action/reflex and adventure but which is something new. But that would go into the opposite direction of your attempts to dissect the genres. Adventure An activity that comprises of consistently risky, dangerous and uncertain experiences. Often involves journeys and exploration. Payoffs include, gains in knowledge, an interesting story to tell, fortune, and glory. So really, there are no such thing as adventure games, except perhaps a few [[gametag:arg arg]] games here an there. But Liveshot.com seems more of an adventure for the animal than the protagonist (and perhaps for the protagonist's side kick). There seems to be no consistent definition for videogames. Maybe we need to invent a new word. Role-play is the act of acting out a role of a character (or characters), with different motivations than the one acting the role. For vidoegames there seems to be some required elements, character development in the form of stats, story creation, and rewards to the player for preforming the role with the character's motivations that are not necessarily their own. Stats can usually be divided into 3 types; physical traits, spiritual traits, psychological traits. These stats can be enhanced by physical (weapons, armor, and equipment) or spiritual (magic or prayer) means. Stats can sometimes be unseen. Such as in Ultima VI where physical traits and psychological traits are visible but only certain NPCs can tell what the character's spiritual stats are. As a general rule, if the character's innate abilities can not be improved, then its not an RPG. Stories are rarely actually created in so much as a pre-existing main story is discovered or advanced in most RPGs. But there is much leeway in non-important aspects of the story for the player to fill in with their own actions. Rewards for preforming the role usually consist of growing the character faster, advancing the story sooner, and/or beating the game easier. Occasionally their are actual bonuses for this that can not be had any other way. I've taken RP to mean that players can choose the role they play, even if the character is the same. Usually this comes in with "class" choice, but some games offer a bit more freeform gameplay. Many D&D games have a lot of alignment related things to do that fullfil part of the character's personality, whichever they wish him/her to be, etc. All kinds of actual roleplaying. Unfortunately most RPGs fall into the stats=roleplay mentality.
Unfortunately there's no way to identify games that take only that stat part from proper RPGs (like Baldur's Gate and similar, if you ignore the massive amounts of hack&slash content they have). This wouldn't be so bad if the statless P&P RPGs had ever gained more popularity. And I also take that RP means that the player has choice on how or what kind of character it is, not just filling a role in some grand play, like all non-RP games could be considered. There's no roleplay if you have no choice to actually play the role (= the role doesn't really matter, or it's played out _for_ the player and not _by_ the player). Which is actually what most RPGs unfortunately do, they play out the role for the player, only allowing them to tweak their stats, if even that. Leaving only the stats as the only reminder of what was in P&P RPGs. These can be likened to P&P RPG session where the gamemaster hands out scripts of the session they have to follow, so it ends up as a (theatre) play instead of roleplay. Some, of course, pick out characters they haven't made themselves and try to play those in-character as possible, but this again requires they have choice and aren't just following some script written by someone else, their adventures and deeds are crafted from there out instead of having been set in stone. But sadly RPG means only that the characters have stats, that's all games require to be called RPGs, nothing else. And so the roleplay aspect is lost. Wish they called these something else, but they don't. I'm inclined to invent several tags to identify the real ones and the fakes here, but I've had no great ideas on the matter yet. ---- Going back to adventure games.. I can easily identify the traditional kind. With action-adventure games I have no idea what the adventure part is supposed to mean. The games are always action games of some sort, and I don't see much how the adventure part comes in them (although some rare cases have actual story to tell, and some slower ones might actually go for the adventure movie kind of feel). To me it appears that the modern action-adventure is just 3D variant of fast-paced platformers (action-platformer) of the old, like Sonic, yet the genre is changed for some mystical reason, but the gameplay stays identical. Although Sonic may appear obvious case to go to platformer genre, it's not that different from crash bandicoot and friends which are action-adventure (to me there's none, actually). Tomb Raiders are adventure only in the adventure movie sensem again, otherwise the gameplay is something like hybrid of shooter, puzzle and something else to cover all the acrobatics. Much slower than most action-adventures I've tried. So, I have to assume that most others don't have any clue what the (action-adventure) genre is for either. They just go with "the feeling". Adventure An activity that comprises of consistently risky, dangerous and uncertain experiences. Often involves journeys and exploration. Payoffs include, gains in knowledge, an interesting story to tell, fortune, and glory. So really, there are no such thing as adventure games, except perhaps a few arg games here an there. But Liveshot.com seems more of an adventure for the animal than the protagonist (and perhaps for the protagonist's side kick).
The normal definition of the word Adventure can not be taken as basis to describe Adventure as genre for games. The gaming world could have come up with a totally different word for it, but alas the first genre representative of this type of games was called Colossal Adventure (or just Adventure) and so when other games were shown the crowd said "Oh, another Adventure". And thus the genre Adventure was created and the word was also used when "Adventures" went graphical. Yes and no. Colossal Cave Adventure en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure was the first interactive fiction game or text adventure, whatever you call it. Of course with the coming of graphics the newer adventure games were no longer real clones, because they brought new facets into the genre. When King's Quest 1 was released (maybe the first real modern graphic adventure) they stayed with the term adventure, and rightfully so, because the game still had the typical text parser. At that time real Colossal Cave Adventure clones became known as "text adventure" to differentiate between old-school text based games and the new graphical games. Later the parser was replaced with clickable verbs and icons. Then Adventures went into 3D - which didn't do them well and is one of the reasons why there are only so few pure adventure games released today.
The same is for other genres where the modern versions are not really considered clones anymore of those games that defined the genre many years ago (e.g. platformer: Donkey Kong -> Super Mario Galaxy) Mystery House preceded King's Quest. It was inspired by Colossal Cave Adventure. | |||
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