2015-04-05
Lets remember Eastern 2015 as the day UVL finally reached a total of 100000 games. An impressive number.

Well I am not in the mood right now to discuss the further future of UVL in its very detail, but I think we should discuss it rather sooner than later. According to alexa.com UVL has fallen quite a lot recently in the website rankings, which I don't like. How can UVL make itself unique and worthwhile to visit? How to draw in more potential editors? What are Andrea's future plans with UVL?

At the moment UVL is under the radar, a handful of editors put in lots of work and time to fill the database but oftentimes I question myself if it is worth it in the end. I even for a second thought to migrate to Mobygames, but the contributing process there is tiresome and I don't like writing descriptions for new games so except posting some cover scans from time to time I will firmly stay at UVL. But I want UVL to thrive and not being outdistanced by other databases. I want it to be a valid competitor for being the #1 place to visit if you search for a certain game (UVL's search functionality is theoretically fantastic with its tag system etc.).

Oh enough for now... back to my C64... still lots of disks to go through ;-)

2015-04-05
This is amazing! Thanks you all !!!

To increase it's popularity and reach more users and potentially more editors it needs more social awareness.
Natural indexing with the canonical SEO rules is already there, despite there is always space for improvement, what it need is more cross linking from external sites.
But my future plans about UVL are not changed a lot, I just had to slow down recently, but there are still a lot of things that I want to do, and I can't wait to see them ready.

Any good idea to improve the site awareness is welcome.

2015-04-05
The topics that teran raised are worth discussing and I'll post my thoughts on that next week.

But for the moment let's just enjoy that milestone. 100.000 looks very nice!

2015-04-06
Congratulations UVL, Andrea and all editors!

2015-04-09
Ok, so here are some of my thoughts.


How can UVL make itself unique and worthwhile to visit?


Let's start here.
I think UVL is already unique and what puts it above the competitors is above all the tag system. I also really like this site's layout and structure which is much nicer than, for example, Mobygames' in my opinion (the editing process, too, from what I've heard). But particularly the tag system is a huge asset, and could be of use to many people. Obviously it can help finding video games. But I like to think that such a database could also be used in research since it allows for easy automated comparison of games under certain aspects and much more. Of course, completion is still an issue and for many entries the information supplied by UVL is sketchy. So more editors are needed, as teran said.

I also think that UVL is not getting the attention that it deserves. But how to change that?

First idea: collectors would be a natural target audience for UVL. There are probably many people who would love UVL as a tool for keeping track of their video game collection, and it would certainly benefit UVL if collectors learned about this site and used it to organize their collections. Chances are they will start to edit their marked games, too. To further encourage them to edit, non-editors could get some more rights, too. For example being able to add a small number of games and images per day and being able to edit games that they added themselves. That way there would be no danger of vandalism (a few faulty game entries and images can be deleted very quickly) but new users would have an easy steppingstone into UVL. Also, we should explicitly encourage new users to edit and enter games. The problem is of course that people need to learn first that UVL is an extremely useful tool for organizing a collection. So how to do that?

Actually, I just tried searching for "organize video game collection" and "catalog video game collection" (without quotation marks). Turns out among the first two results in both cases is the page of a software called Game Collector (GC), and UVL is not to be seen in the results of both searches. Never heard of said program, but let's have a look. Basically, it seems to do the same as UVL, only for €24.95 (Standard Edition) or €39.95 (Pro Edition), and apparently people pay for this (and write raving reviews), so I'm now very convinced that we could get a lot of users that would then enter their collection (and hopefully contribute) if they only knew about this site. UVL has a couple of advantages over GC:
-it's free
-a larger database (according to the website GC currently has more than 44.000 game entries on over 100 systems; I wonder, where they get their informatiom from)
-GC appears to run only on Windows and iOS
-we have game screenshots (not just package shots), tags, further information given in editor's notes etc; certainly not for every game, but still.

So, why don't people use UVL instead?

Of course, there are still other competitors for organizing collections, the above is just the first example I found. However I would still think that UVL is one of the best ways to keep track of a large collection. Mobygames allows keeping an collection, too, but I think they don't even have marks like "played", "finished". UVL's design is much better, too, of course :-)
Ok, but how do we reach collectors? I'm not sure. I guess, if someone is active in the collector community he could promote it, post on forums about it and so on.


Aside from advertising specifically to collectors, another thing that I noticed is that Wikipedia articles for video games very often link to Mobygames, but sadly never here. I would think that links on Wikipedia could also generate a nice amount of visits and thus users. If someone here is a Wikipedia editor, maybe they should just put some links there, of course only for good and complete entries. Generally getting other websites to link here is always a good thing.

And one more thing. Not a big deal but I think there should be more "news" on the main site. If the last entry is very old, then visitors get the impression that not much is going on here. There really doesn't need to be an entry every week or even every month, but a few more maybe? (100k games would have been an occasion for example.)


By the way, on the Game Collectorz site that I linked above the alleged world record holder for the largest video game collection promotes said software. Apparently his collection contains over 11.000 games. Well, teran has almost 10.000 games marked as owned and probably many more that he hasn't entered yet? Maybe teran should claim that record and then use his ensuing fame to promote UVL ;-)

2015-04-09
About collectors is a good idea. The advantage I see in UVL is that once you can edit and add games it is very fast done to do so. My 10.000 mark is not that impressive btw if you count the freeware stuff which I also tend to mark. But I want them to mark, because it also shows what game I have "archived/entered" properly on UVL. And your mentioned mainstream collection sites don't have such obscure little games listed. And I bet other collectors sites would count a 50 games compilation (even if the games are all commercial) not as 50 single games but one entry for the compilation. So no, in this regard I am still far from 11.000.

I proposed in the past to open up more edit functionality to fresh users. To give them immediate "beginner editor" status, letting them edit games, maybe add games, upload screenshots etc. and have the editors/moderators watch it via the logs a bit. Maybe limit the number of allowed edits to 50 per day just in case if someone runs amok. When becoming a full editor all functionality like editing company data, deleting games etc. should become open. It should just be clear to new editors that their edits are being watched more carefully and it is possible that it might get corrected, which I would like to be able to do in a "non-public" way like a PM system where to be able to discuss certain edits.

2015-04-09 (updated 2015-05-16)
the first two results in both cases is the page of a software called Game Collector (GC), and UVL is not to be seen in the results of both searches. Never heard of said program, but let's have a look. Basically, it seems to do the same as UVL, only for €24.95 (Standard Edition) or €39.95 (Pro Edition), and apparently people pay for this
Quoted from Mark-Jan Harte:
I'm sorry, but we have no plans to create a version of our products for Linux.

That's where GC loses me. Honestly though, if its not ubiquitous (Linux, Mac, Windows, Android, Amiga, C64, SmartTV, anything with a web browser, even iOS, and even dumb phones without one) I don't think it should be used at UVL. I'd not want UVL to use something that was Linux only even though I only use Linux.

Mobygames

I actually liked their system, flawed as it was. And it's better for collectors than UVL's. But I ditched the site for other problems that UVL does not have. Two major factors that drove me away from MG were 1. editor seniority trumps fact ("I don't care if you have pictures, scans and video of Star Trek 25th Anniversary by MacPlay on Macintosh. I maintain Mac and I say it doesn't exist"). 2. Arbitrary defense of anything already entered (Me: I removed vile language in the description of Ms. Pac-Man screenshots and the edit was rejected, why? Maintainer: Because! If you don't like it you don't have to be here. Me: Agreed.)

Ok, but how do we reach collectors? I'm not sure. I guess, if someone is active in the collector community he could promote it, post on forums about it and so on.

Aside from advertising specifically to collectors, another thing that I noticed is that Wikipedia articles for video games very often link to Mobygames

Wikipedia policy only uses links to sites that are established as reliable. Sites are reliable if Wikipedia links to them. Wikipedia discourages links in favor of references. References must be reliable. Wikipedia policy forbids spam.
There's no arguing with religion.
It will take an over whelming flood of referencing and linking to UVL but many hundreds of editors that cannot be redacted quickly enough by reasonable efforts before official Wikipedians will accept UVL. I and a few hundred editors managed to do this when listing 3 or more player adapters for console games over a 8 year period of constant deletions. Hardly seems worth the effort now, especially considering UVL tracks them.
Also, there are a few links:uvlist.net from wikipedia. So maybe they are coming around, slowly.

As far as collectors. I think targeting collectors (and reviewers) with self-maintained websites would be most efficient. Both in inviting them and asking them what they would like a collector's site to have for them.

2015-04-09
how do we reach collectors?

Having data export should already make UVL more desirable over others for this because it's simple way to back up your information in a way that can be re-used for other things or other sites. But honestly UVL actually allows recording very little personal information about games which has been discussed before. For example, I can't record which edition(s) of a game I have, when I got each, how much I paid for each, where I bought them, condition and format of each, and other such details that are desirable for collectors. But all that is mostly just features that would make UVL more attractive, I have no idea how to get the word out there better.

2015-04-09
Gamefaqs is actually very nice for collectors as well. I like the system. But gamefaqs is also mainly mainstream games. How could I seriously place little C64 PD games on that site? Never.

And UVL's main goal is to document every game ever made. Regardless platform, age, size or obscurity. UVL is one of a very few projects which have that goal.

And I am personally satisfied enough when UVL stays a light-weight database with a good tagging system to find games in contrast to a bigger database with detailed credits and all, which takes even more manpower to update and maintain. This is something that we will just not manage to do. And just for the case someone wants to enter detailed information for a game UVL provides all the options to do let you do so. Descriptions also take time and I think the tagging system, while far from being optimal for replacing descriptions, is sometimes enough to describe a game. Or who thinks that writing the 195th description for a Breakout or Tetris clone is fun?

As long as a game entry has basic data like publisher, year and genre (for statistics), screenshots (those entries look immediately much nicer) and tags I am satisfied. The rest which is important is the number of games. We need huge numbers. I want UVL to be the site people visit when they want to get an overview about how many games were released for a platform, how many chess games were released for the Gameboy, which games are based on Lord of the Rings etc. And for this it is very important to have big numbers over all platforms. Especially trying to get near complete numbers for older/defunct platforms. After that it becomes very useful.

2015-04-10
Wow, I'm flattered.
And grateful.
To start, this is a small recap of what has been proposed so far.
Let me elaborate and see where to start. Feel free to add suggestions :-)

Overall needs
More editors are needed
Improve rankings (visitors, SERP)
More promotion (forums, socials)
Aiming for completeness

Collectors as audience
Improve tools for collectors
More personal data (date, price, condition)
Invite them
Ask what they need
Make promo pages about collecting games

Give more rights to non-editors
Editing with daily limits
Edit the games they have added
Admins non public edit privilege
Simple way to revert bad edits
CREQs

PROs (things to promote)
Helps to find video games
Useful for research
A lot of games
Data export
Powerful search options

More
Needs more news in homepage
Competitors check
About Wikipedia links

2015-04-11
Descriptions also take time and I think the tagging system, while far from being optimal for replacing descriptions

They probably never should. The point where they could hope to replace descriptions is when they have advanced beyond what we have here. Like, tags having tags of their own per game, and tags having more context information within each game. Although I do want that kind of tagging system, it shouldn't be a priority compared to other improvements.

2015-04-11 (updated 2015-04-11)

Wikipedia policy only uses links to sites that are established as reliable. Sites are reliable if Wikipedia links to them.


I suppose I should have expected something like that. So far, I only did a few Wikipedia edits, mostly correcting glaring errors, so I don't know that well how Wikipedia works behind the scenes. I'm not even sure anymore, I might actually have seen the Mobygames links mostly on the German Wikipedia but there is certainly a considerable number of links to MG on the English version, too.
Unfortunately I have lost the password to my Wikipedia account, but maybe I'll create a new one and test, how long links/references to UVL will last. Links would be preferrable in my opinion since they are more visible.


As far as collectors. I think targeting collectors (and reviewers) with self-maintained websites would be most efficient. Both in inviting them and asking them what they would like a collector's site to have for them.


I agree. But suppose that in a forum someone opens up a topic "How do I keep track of my collection?". Then it would certainly be beneficial if one of the first answers is "You could use UVL, it's great" (topics like that also tend to pop up often as search results, so they can have a large reach). I don't know whether any of you is active on a suitable forum. I'm not part of any collector community, unsurprisingly, since I'm no collector.


Descriptions also take time and I think the tagging system, while far from being optimal for replacing descriptions

They probably never should.


True. It's always best to have both. But when given the choice I would probably prefer a game with exhaustive tags to one with a very good description. Not only because of the searchabiliy, there are other advantages, too. I mean, take a look at the tags for Gothic 3 for example and try to imagine a description that would contain all the information given by those tags. Or better don't.
It is also usually quicker to add tags than to write a description. For me at least, maybe other people write faster than I do.

2015-04-11

I actually liked their system, flawed as it was.



Gamefaqs is actually very nice for collectors as well.


I'm interested what it is that you like in the respective sites? Maybe there is something that we can still learn from them?
In any case, Sanguine's remark that UVL is not allowing personal information for games is also something to consider. I didn't think about that earlier but it's a very good suggestion.

Also, thanks Andrea for the summary!

2015-04-11
So far, I only did a few Wikipedia edits, mostly correcting glaring errors, so I don't know that well how Wikipedia works behind the scenes. Unfortunately I have lost the password to my Wikipedia account

I've found editing anonomously and not revealing anything about yourself is the best way to provide edits that do not get erased. For example, after 5 years of editing where about %90 of my edits remained as is or improved by others, I mentioned in a Wikipedia discussion that I was Christian. _All_ my edits in wikipedia, and most of my discussion entries as well, withn 20 minutes, were deleted, including ones that others had improved. Few of them related to 'Christain' topics, such as a minor edit in the Pulley entry, even a few spelling corrections were reverted to errent spelling again. Perhaps they were bias edits? Well, they were not deemed so until something about me was revealed. And, most of them were not deemed bias after other editors restored them. All edits on my account after this purge were removed daily for months. Since this, i've strictly anonymised myself and rarely are my edits removed. This is just one example, I have dozens. Wikipedians seem to care much more about who editors are than the quality of the edits.

How do I keep track of my collection?
A collector's button in the navbar might a good time investment. Even with the tools we have, duplicating them in a collectors button or even an interface would be more inviting.

Also one of the reasons to invite a collector with a self maintained web presence is getting their followers as a bonus.

2015-04-11



Gamefaqs is actually very nice for collectors as well.


I'm interested what it is that you like in the respective sites? Maybe there is something that we can still learn from them?


I like the fact that they are pretty complete regarding commercial games (video games more so than PC games). It is also nice that you can rate the difficulty level, length of the game and (best option) to say how much you have played it ("tried it", "played it", "halfway", "completed it", "conquered it"). I mark many games in UVL with "played it", but I must admit that most of them are only a "tried it" for < 5 minutes to make screenshots etc. Generally that lean rating system is better presented than in UVL. UVL's rating system... I still tend to ignore it. It's too complicated. Less options, concentrating on the most important ones (graphics, sound...) and presenting them in a more pleasing fashion (my suggestion: little stars under the big 5 star overall rating) and it will become something I would use.

2015-04-12
Another way to get content faster might be to ask permission from owners of seemingly 'abandoned' game db projects to take the info, screenshots, covers, etc. 'officially' for implementing in UVL. Sites like www.atarilegend.com come to my mind here. Lots of stuff that UVL could need; it didn't get updates for years and is sort of made obsolete by atarimania lately.

2015-04-13
Collectors as audience
Improve tools for collectors
More personal data (date, price, condition)
Invite them
Ask what they need
Make promo pages about collecting games


IMO, collectors can't already be a reliable audience since we do not (really) cover different versions of a game ("release data"). This "release data" possibility is not really used AFAIK cause it's a bit complicated to use. I don't use UVL as a primary way to register my collection because it does not allow me to - for example - consider that I own two different copies of Virtual-On for Saturn, the regular one and the Seganet one.

This is, in my opinion, one of the major flaw of UVL, which does not cover different versions of a single game. I think we should improve this "release data" functionality.

I also appreciate to choose the completeness of games I own : digital? media only? with box? with box and manual? complete with all ads, registration card and spine card? Etc...

2015-04-13
re: re:
cover different versions of a game ("release data").

Editions I believe is the word used for those.

I also appreciate to choose the completeness of games I own : digital? media only? with box? with box and manual? complete with all ads, registration card and spine card? Etc...

Several precanned ones with ability to record custom notes on top of those would be best I think.

2015-04-13
The other thread that was started reminded me of a thing I've actually disliked and found somewhat confusing in terms of the numbers here: having multiple entries for a game just because it exists on multiple platforms. It requires a lot of data duplication and probably bloats the numbers while there could be more intuitive ways to separate platform specific differences if any. Like, a game here that's released for current and previous generation can have like 7 separate entries even though they're largely identical. Which in turn makes me believe we actually have here only something like 60-70k unique games if even that.

Changing that however would probably be huge undertaking.



source: www.uvlist.net/forum/thread/93699/IGDB


2015-05-15
Another way to get content faster might be to ask permission from owners of seemingly 'abandoned' game db projects to take the info, screenshots, covers, etc. 'officially' for implementing in UVL. Sites like www.atarilegend.com come to my mind here. Lots of stuff that UVL could need; it didn't get updates for years and is sort of made obsolete by atarimania lately.


I must quote myself here. Anyone else who read the newest news entry from Mobygames? That they were in process to remove watermarks from images was known to me, but the owner said in the news post... "Other sites, YouTubers, bloggers and so on should always feel free to make use of these assets."
http://www.mobygames.com/forums/dga,2/dgb,3/dgm,210103/

This could open up lots of great stuff for UVL. I mean we don't need lots of covers per game as Mobygames usually strives to have, but a single one for an UVL entry would be great. Maybe with a general way to make clear that stuff originated from Mobygames to remain fair. But really, I did not expect this.

2015-05-16
re: re:
Maybe with a general way to make clear that stuff originated from Mobygames to remain fair. But really, I did not expect this.

In general ability to attribute information or resources would be great outside of telling who added it to UVL specifically. Kinda like "why or based on what was this edit or upload made".