Since I see the addition of lots of genre tags that are already hardcoded as genre I want to give a bit of advice here. This is a bit complicated for new editors so I feel I need to mention it.
Tags that are hardcoded as genre in the editor form (like sport, simulation, strategy, adventure etc.) should not be used as tags. The tag group exists but the description says "informal group". This is to build up a hierarchy for groups. Tags are normally usded for sub-genres. So if you enter a sports game the tag is for defining the specific sport.
To sum it up. Its important to read what the tag group description says about a tag. Sometimes its not what you first might think it is. This happens to me also, because I did not create most of the tag-groups. So its also important when a group is created to make sure to make clear description of the group.
Best example of a confusing tag is "racing". A note at the bottom of the group page (very hard to see) said that this is not meant to be for racing games, but for non-racing games that have a "racing element" in it. I made it more visible now by putting the informaton in the main description of the tag/group. This was confusing for me as well. And there might be several such tags. It needs time to get used to the structure.
If I had much more time I would do a big rework on tag naming. For example game series are sometimes tagged with just the game name and sometimes with a -"series" added in the tag. This should be always series when the tag is about a series. So there are many old series tags that don't have the "series" in the tag name.
And last but not least don't be confused when I am deleting some of the "informal" genre tags from the game entries again when I see them.
Edit: I found another very confusing tag and a wonderful example. Its that tag "casino". I first thought this would be a genre tag for "casino games". But in the tag description it shows its meant to be a location tag, so only for games that take place in a casino. I my opinion the tag should be "casino-location" then.
Edit 2: I strongly dislike tags that are "anti-tags", so describing things that the game is not. One of them is nomame. The tag for "not (yet) emulated by MAME". Avoid this please. I did not create the tag but if it were me I would get rid of this immediately. And also similar tags. Because once this gets emulated by MAME no one goes and corrects it. And if we have a tag "emulated by mame" it should be clear that everything that does not have this tag is (likely) not emulated by mame. So in general avoid (creating) such kind of tags.
About using game genre and other tags.
Some more notes about tags recently used in the wrong way:
Wordinput --> Use only when its full words or little sentences are used. Not meant to be for games where you type in command letters via keyboard like pressing A for attack or similar.
Wordgame --> Games that are about finding words or finding the right word or finishing sentences etc. Not meant to be for games that have you type in words.
Turn-based --> Don't use this tag for now. Its hardcoded as genre (use that) and the tag is a container tag and not a normal group tag.
[Edit]: I will change Turn-based from Container to normal group. I do not know what the original creator of the tag wanted. The description does not talk about informal group. On the other hand its hard coded.
Wordinput --> Use only when its full words or little sentences are used. Not meant to be for games where you type in command letters via keyboard like pressing A for attack or similar.
Wordgame --> Games that are about finding words or finding the right word or finishing sentences etc. Not meant to be for games that have you type in words.
Turn-based --> Don't use this tag for now. Its hardcoded as genre (use that) and the tag is a container tag and not a normal group tag.
[Edit]: I will change Turn-based from Container to normal group. I do not know what the original creator of the tag wanted. The description does not talk about informal group. On the other hand its hard coded.
re: About using game genre and other tags.
The truth is very confusing, and the issue of labels is unclear, since it is not known if they are for subgenres, or rather, to describe the video game as such.
I will avoid labeling the games, what someone else does.
Because it is still annoying that the labels that are sometimes placed are deleted, for example, in America (USA and LATAM) "Word input" is used to label those games that are based solely on text, and the same, "word game" (although here, it is also used for those word games)
I am not the one to criticize, because I am new, but the truth is not entirely clear to me, the use of labels.
This is very similar to the criticism I made on one occasion, regarding the sources of information (in the end I decided not to post them, because they just deleted them, arguing that the links disappeared over time). It is difficult to build a historical record if you cannot place sources.
But without arguing, as you can see, I'm uploading video games from the 70s, and those are mostly text games.
In short, I will not place more tags.
I will avoid labeling the games, what someone else does.
Because it is still annoying that the labels that are sometimes placed are deleted, for example, in America (USA and LATAM) "Word input" is used to label those games that are based solely on text, and the same, "word game" (although here, it is also used for those word games)
I am not the one to criticize, because I am new, but the truth is not entirely clear to me, the use of labels.
This is very similar to the criticism I made on one occasion, regarding the sources of information (in the end I decided not to post them, because they just deleted them, arguing that the links disappeared over time). It is difficult to build a historical record if you cannot place sources.
But without arguing, as you can see, I'm uploading video games from the 70s, and those are mostly text games.
In short, I will not place more tags.
Since I see the addition of lots of genre tags that are already hardcoded as genre I want to give a bit of advice here. This is a bit complicated for new editors so I feel I need to mention it.
Tags that are hardcoded as genre in the editor form (like sport, simulation, strategy, adventure etc.) should not be used as tags. The tag group exists but the description says "informal group". This is to build up a hierarchy for groups. Tags are normally usded for sub-genres. So if you enter a sports game the tag is for defining the specific sport.
To sum it up. Its important to read what the tag group description says about a tag. Sometimes its not what you first might think it is. This happens to me also, because I did not create most of the tag-groups. So its also important when a group is created to make sure to make clear description of the group.
Best example of a confusing tag is "racing". A note at the bottom of the group page (very hard to see) said that this is not meant to be for racing games, but for non-racing games that have a "racing element" in it. I made it more visible now by putting the informaton in the main description of the tag/group. This was confusing for me as well. And there might be several such tags. It needs time to get used to the structure.
If I had much more time I would do a big rework on tag naming. For example game series are sometimes tagged with just the game name and sometimes with a -"series" added in the tag. This should be always series when the tag is about a series. So there are many old series tags that don't have the "series" in the tag name.
And last but not least don't be confused when I am deleting some of the "informal" genre tags from the game entries again when I see them.
Edit: I found another very confusing tag and a wonderful example. Its that tag "casino". I first thought this would be a genre tag for "casino games". But in the tag description it shows its meant to be a location tag, so only for games that take place in a casino. I my opinion the tag should be "casino-location" then.
Edit 2: I strongly dislike tags that are "anti-tags", so describing things that the game is not. One of them is nomame. The tag for "not (yet) emulated by MAME". Avoid this please. I did not create the tag but if it were me I would get rid of this immediately. And also similar tags. Because once this gets emulated by MAME no one goes and corrects it. And if we have a tag "emulated by mame" it should be clear that everything that does not have this tag is (likely) not emulated by mame. So in general avoid (creating) such kind of tags.
Tags that are hardcoded as genre in the editor form (like sport, simulation, strategy, adventure etc.) should not be used as tags. The tag group exists but the description says "informal group". This is to build up a hierarchy for groups. Tags are normally usded for sub-genres. So if you enter a sports game the tag is for defining the specific sport.
To sum it up. Its important to read what the tag group description says about a tag. Sometimes its not what you first might think it is. This happens to me also, because I did not create most of the tag-groups. So its also important when a group is created to make sure to make clear description of the group.
Best example of a confusing tag is "racing". A note at the bottom of the group page (very hard to see) said that this is not meant to be for racing games, but for non-racing games that have a "racing element" in it. I made it more visible now by putting the informaton in the main description of the tag/group. This was confusing for me as well. And there might be several such tags. It needs time to get used to the structure.
If I had much more time I would do a big rework on tag naming. For example game series are sometimes tagged with just the game name and sometimes with a -"series" added in the tag. This should be always series when the tag is about a series. So there are many old series tags that don't have the "series" in the tag name.
And last but not least don't be confused when I am deleting some of the "informal" genre tags from the game entries again when I see them.
Edit: I found another very confusing tag and a wonderful example. Its that tag "casino". I first thought this would be a genre tag for "casino games". But in the tag description it shows its meant to be a location tag, so only for games that take place in a casino. I my opinion the tag should be "casino-location" then.
Edit 2: I strongly dislike tags that are "anti-tags", so describing things that the game is not. One of them is nomame. The tag for "not (yet) emulated by MAME". Avoid this please. I did not create the tag but if it were me I would get rid of this immediately. And also similar tags. Because once this gets emulated by MAME no one goes and corrects it. And if we have a tag "emulated by mame" it should be clear that everything that does not have this tag is (likely) not emulated by mame. So in general avoid (creating) such kind of tags.
re: re: About using game genre and other tags.
I know it can be confusing. I did not create most of the tags and I am often confused as well and I only use a portion of tags available where I am sure of its usage. I can only say that its important to read the tag/label description before using it first. For tag wordinput the description is "Player controls the game or part of the game by typing in sometime full or partial sentences that are interpreted as commands. Very often the two word, NOUN VERB, format was used."
So to all editors that create tag-groups its also important to make clear in the description what this is for. Wordinput in itself is an unclear tag, but in this case the description is good enough. Maybe that should have been called "sentenceinput" or something. I actually only use the tag for interactive fiction / text adventure games.
Can you give examples? Its possible that I deleted some external links. I remember some direct link to mobygames entries and one occasion with links to the direct download of APF games on a ROM-site.
Why do I delete those links? Those links can break after a while. The ROM site shuts down or the other database changes something. And that results in many broken links in UVL. Who is going to fix that? So for links to other databases there is the possibility for the admin to hardcode it into specific platforms. For example you see a link to Atarimania in every Atari 800 game entry. If Atarimania should vanish or change it can be change in UVL centrally. Thats manageable. If you have suggestions for such hardcoded links that should appear in every game entry then maybe the admin can add it in the future.
I do not delete links to unique articles on other websites. So if you have an article to a 60s game to a university site that talks about the game I do not delete this. I only delete when I think its mass linking to other databases and other game entries. I also converted some links from "personal review" to "site entry" article format. But in that case the link is still there.
As for the links to ROM sites. You put the link to TV-games.ru under all APF games. This is very hard to fix when the links change/break in the future (the problem with many mass links). But I got solution for that. When I deleted the links from the single game entries I also created a link in the APF platform page.
https://www.uvlist.net/platforms/detail/154-APF
Now at the start of the platform description is a "Where to find Games" headline. And I put the link to the TV-Games.ru site there. This is something that can be done to other platforms as well. That is a nice solution, because when the ROM site dies I only have to change it in one place and not in hundreds or thousands of game entries.
A game that only consists of text are already labeled by using the text display. No tag for that. We don't have a tag for a game that needs input of only single letters. You could give them the "keyboard" tag if its keyboard controlled. But that could also apply to games where you directly control a characters movement. So its not only for text input. Games where there are options like press (A)ttack, (F)lee, (T)alk... and you have to press the first letter to activate the option could have the "menu" tag. But a chess game where you have to input A2-A4 to make your moves has no proper tag at the moment.
I would not be happy about that either. Especially when its about subgenres I ask you to continue using tags. The main genre (sport, simulation, board game, adventure) are hardcoded and should not be used as tags. But its very important to give subgenre tags. A sport game should always have a subgenre tag like "soccer", "baseball" and so on. (Simple pong clones - even if they are called "tennis" are not really sport games and should be "action/reflex" despite the name and should get the pong tag instead of a tennis tag... however this can be discussed its only my opinion). Board Game subgenres that are based on real-world board games should also get a tag like "chess", "tictactoe", "monopoly".
If you have any questions on why some portions gets re-edited then ask here. Thats why I started this forum thread. To explain why I did some things. If you have suggestions for other tags that you need to describe the (super old) games we can also discuss it here.
The truth is very confusing, and the issue of labels is unclear, since it is not known if they are for subgenres, or rather, to describe the video game as such.
I will avoid labeling the games, what someone else does.
Because it is still annoying that the labels that are sometimes placed are deleted, for example, in America (USA and LATAM) "Word input" is used to label those games that are based solely on text, and the same, "word game" (although here, it is also used for those word games)
I will avoid labeling the games, what someone else does.
Because it is still annoying that the labels that are sometimes placed are deleted, for example, in America (USA and LATAM) "Word input" is used to label those games that are based solely on text, and the same, "word game" (although here, it is also used for those word games)
I know it can be confusing. I did not create most of the tags and I am often confused as well and I only use a portion of tags available where I am sure of its usage. I can only say that its important to read the tag/label description before using it first. For tag wordinput the description is "Player controls the game or part of the game by typing in sometime full or partial sentences that are interpreted as commands. Very often the two word, NOUN VERB, format was used."
So to all editors that create tag-groups its also important to make clear in the description what this is for. Wordinput in itself is an unclear tag, but in this case the description is good enough. Maybe that should have been called "sentenceinput" or something. I actually only use the tag for interactive fiction / text adventure games.
This is very similar to the criticism I made on one occasion, regarding the sources of information (in the end I decided not to post them, because they just deleted them, arguing that the links disappeared over time). It is difficult to build a historical record if you cannot place sources.
Can you give examples? Its possible that I deleted some external links. I remember some direct link to mobygames entries and one occasion with links to the direct download of APF games on a ROM-site.
Why do I delete those links? Those links can break after a while. The ROM site shuts down or the other database changes something. And that results in many broken links in UVL. Who is going to fix that? So for links to other databases there is the possibility for the admin to hardcode it into specific platforms. For example you see a link to Atarimania in every Atari 800 game entry. If Atarimania should vanish or change it can be change in UVL centrally. Thats manageable. If you have suggestions for such hardcoded links that should appear in every game entry then maybe the admin can add it in the future.
I do not delete links to unique articles on other websites. So if you have an article to a 60s game to a university site that talks about the game I do not delete this. I only delete when I think its mass linking to other databases and other game entries. I also converted some links from "personal review" to "site entry" article format. But in that case the link is still there.
As for the links to ROM sites. You put the link to TV-games.ru under all APF games. This is very hard to fix when the links change/break in the future (the problem with many mass links). But I got solution for that. When I deleted the links from the single game entries I also created a link in the APF platform page.
https://www.uvlist.net/platforms/detail/154-APF
Now at the start of the platform description is a "Where to find Games" headline. And I put the link to the TV-Games.ru site there. This is something that can be done to other platforms as well. That is a nice solution, because when the ROM site dies I only have to change it in one place and not in hundreds or thousands of game entries.
But without arguing, as you can see, I'm uploading video games from the 70s, and those are mostly text games.
A game that only consists of text are already labeled by using the text display. No tag for that. We don't have a tag for a game that needs input of only single letters. You could give them the "keyboard" tag if its keyboard controlled. But that could also apply to games where you directly control a characters movement. So its not only for text input. Games where there are options like press (A)ttack, (F)lee, (T)alk... and you have to press the first letter to activate the option could have the "menu" tag. But a chess game where you have to input A2-A4 to make your moves has no proper tag at the moment.
In short, I will not place more tags.
I would not be happy about that either. Especially when its about subgenres I ask you to continue using tags. The main genre (sport, simulation, board game, adventure) are hardcoded and should not be used as tags. But its very important to give subgenre tags. A sport game should always have a subgenre tag like "soccer", "baseball" and so on. (Simple pong clones - even if they are called "tennis" are not really sport games and should be "action/reflex" despite the name and should get the pong tag instead of a tennis tag... however this can be discussed its only my opinion). Board Game subgenres that are based on real-world board games should also get a tag like "chess", "tictactoe", "monopoly".
If you have any questions on why some portions gets re-edited then ask here. Thats why I started this forum thread. To explain why I did some things. If you have suggestions for other tags that you need to describe the (super old) games we can also discuss it here.
re: re: re: About using game genre and other tags.
I don't see where wordinput needs to be tied to a particular genre. Why can't it work for puzzle games, text games, graphical adventures, click adventures, that include word input? I would think this would be especially notable in games that aren't text games.
re: re: re: re: About using game genre and other tags.
Its not tied to a genre. But its more than just type in a letter to make a command. You have to type in at least complete words if not (short) sentences. And as I said I did not create the tag. At least with interactivefiction I am sure I use the tag as the tag creator meant it to be used thats why I normally use it only for those.
Edit:
Some more typical wordinput candidates are old Sierra Adventures (graphic adventures but with wordinput), Trivia Games where you have to type in the solution or chat games like Eliza where you are communicating by writing sentences. But all in all I think its a pretty rare input method for games because its not very convenient for most genres.
I don't see where wordinput needs to be tied to a particular genre. Why can't it work for puzzle games, text games, graphical adventures, click adventures, that include word input? I would think this would be especially notable in games that aren't text games.
Its not tied to a genre. But its more than just type in a letter to make a command. You have to type in at least complete words if not (short) sentences. And as I said I did not create the tag. At least with interactivefiction I am sure I use the tag as the tag creator meant it to be used thats why I normally use it only for those.
Edit:
Some more typical wordinput candidates are old Sierra Adventures (graphic adventures but with wordinput), Trivia Games where you have to type in the solution or chat games like Eliza where you are communicating by writing sentences. But all in all I think its a pretty rare input method for games because its not very convenient for most genres.
Turn-based --> Don't use this tag for now. Its hardcoded as genre (use that) and the tag is a container tag and not a normal group tag.
[Edit]: I will change Turn-based from Container to normal group. I do not know what the original creator of the tag wanted. The description does not talk about informal group. On the other hand its hard coded.
[Edit]: I will change Turn-based from Container to normal group. I do not know what the original creator of the tag wanted. The description does not talk about informal group. On the other hand its hard coded.
I'm probably the one who created it (hi, I'm not active anymore). At quick glance it was to group up game concepts relating to turn-based mechanics.
And as for word input, I think there was discussions about the naming originally? And IMO Word should be fairly clear that it's not for singular letters, those are not words (not in english anyway, outside of very few cases). If it was named letter input, sure.
One more little thing @Becoro. Language is used only for ingame language and not used for region the game was released in and not for language of manuals. The old Donkey Kong titles were released in Japan and come from Japan but they are only in English language. Thats why I will remove the JP language again. I will only remove it in cases where I am very sure like with Donkey Kong.
Another thing I noticed and feel to bring up here to prevent coming future problems: Please be careful with copy&pasting descriptions from Mobygames and marking them as official descriptions. These are not official descriptions. Please change it to "Main description", when the description does not come from the publisher/developer itself. And while I used screenshots from Mobygames myself in very few occasions where I can not make screenshots myself and other sources are not available, I would never use their descriptions. I am sure the editors over at Mobygames put quite some time into their descriptions. Starting to (mass) using them in UVL is a bit unfair. This has not been discussed here, so I don't know what other peoples opinion about this is, but its my personal opinion. If Mobygames descriptions are used very rarely and the source is made clear I feel that it could be accepted.
Becoro will be happy to hear this: I decided to change the way wordinput is used. Wordinput can now be used not only for longer commands and verb/noun combinations but is the general tag for everything controlled by text prompts / text parser. So its equivalent now to what Text-parser is at Mobygames. So if a chess game wants you to type in "A2"-"A4" its OK to use wordinput now. I made textparser synonym to wordinput. Also changed the tag description and some further info in the extra description:
- Should NOT be used for games where you control something on screen with keyboard directly.
- Should NOT be used for games like MMOs where a chat function is included.
- Typing in commands and text via a text prompt MUST be the main method to interact in the game.
In the end I would rather have textparser replace wordinput as the new main tag. But I do not know what would happen if I tried to make a new textparser tag and make wordinput a synonym for that. Don't want to break thousands of wordinput tags.
- Should NOT be used for games where you control something on screen with keyboard directly.
- Should NOT be used for games like MMOs where a chat function is included.
- Typing in commands and text via a text prompt MUST be the main method to interact in the game.
In the end I would rather have textparser replace wordinput as the new main tag. But I do not know what would happen if I tried to make a new textparser tag and make wordinput a synonym for that. Don't want to break thousands of wordinput tags.
Thank you very much, it was an excellent initiative.
Becoro will be happy to hear this: I decided to change the way wordinput is used. Wordinput can now be used not only for longer commands and verb/noun combinations but is the general tag for everything controlled by text prompts / text parser. So its equivalent now to what Text-parser is at Mobygames. So if a chess game wants you to type in "A2"-"A4" its OK to use wordinput now. I made textparser synonym to wordinput. Also changed the tag description and some further info in the extra description:
- Should NOT be used for games where you control something on screen with keyboard directly.
- Should NOT be used for games like MMOs where a chat function is included.
- Typing in commands and text via a text prompt MUST be the main method to interact in the game.
In the end I would rather have textparser replace wordinput as the new main tag. But I do not know what would happen if I tried to make a new textparser tag and make wordinput a synonym for that. Don't want to break thousands of wordinput tags.
- Should NOT be used for games where you control something on screen with keyboard directly.
- Should NOT be used for games like MMOs where a chat function is included.
- Typing in commands and text via a text prompt MUST be the main method to interact in the game.
In the end I would rather have textparser replace wordinput as the new main tag. But I do not know what would happen if I tried to make a new textparser tag and make wordinput a synonym for that. Don't want to break thousands of wordinput tags.
It's okay, only that I thought I saw an original version with Japanese characters, but I don't have the source, and I must be consistent with what I said about the sources hahaha.
One more little thing @Becoro. Language is used only for ingame language and not used for region the game was released in and not for language of manuals. The old Donkey Kong titles were released in Japan and come from Japan but they are only in English language. Thats why I will remove the JP language again. I will only remove it in cases where I am very sure like with Donkey Kong.